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Post by Kestrel on Jun 17, 2009 18:06:20 GMT 1
I don't think anyone's suggesting that Aleithia can't shift at all. Just that being "good" at it means combatworthiness, knowign the skill is druidic basic training. Semantics I guess, lets leave that.
In okaying her age, there must have been a miscommunication -- I'm positive I didn't know about Aleithia's age till I saw it in the profile, because my first thought then was "holy fuck, if I'd realised she was THAT young Kes would have tried to talk her OUT of it, not into it". I let it fly then because it was a fudgable mistake, and on reflection, Aleithia seemed otherwise unremarkable so as the one, lone special thing, being a teen with adult competence was ok. She was amazing, but not too amazing.
Why why I'm grumbling now, when I wasn't before. Recently Aleithia's been more than adult competent -- she's been "a little genius", as you've put it. This wasn't in her profile or in how I percieved her originally -- it's new, it's more special, and it's a degree of special that I think detracts from the original charm of the character. I miss the kid who was eager and competent and not a genius.
I want to find a way to sort this - I suggested upping her age since you seemed very intent on keeping the genius. The other option I suggested was letting other players in on the ideas via /tells, so it isn't just Aleithia being an very clever, it becomes basic competence for druids in general. ...if that makes any sense.
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Post by aleithia on Jun 17, 2009 18:29:51 GMT 1
I don't think anyone's suggesting that Aleithia can't shift at all. Just that being "good" at it means combatworthiness, knowign the skill is druidic basic training. Oh, phew, okay then. :-) I'm starting to feel like we might be on the same page after all... Okay, we can work with that... I see what you mean. I guess my concept goes, she's smart enough to pick things up straight away, she learns very fast, and that plus her slightly unusual home environment is how she got so competent so young. The "little genius" bit is intended as the reason why she's competent early, not as a way of making her better than other Druids in any way whatsoever. That does make sense. Regarding the stones, I imagined this as a trick that e.g. Fae might not have thought of (or she might have, that's up to her), but on reflection it wouldn't be surprising, just a clever little finesse. To an elder Druid it would be utterly obvious; at best they might be impressed that Aleithia came up with it by herself. I'll make sure to mention that in /tell any time another Druid is around. To non-Druids like Sarama or Mehtomiel such Druidy tricks might seem astonishing, but I thought of that as a misperception on their part. Another time I'll be more careful to /tell: "this is actually not that hard but it's up to you whether you find it surprising." Which I guess is the RP lesson I've learned from this discussion: even if I expect other people's characters to be surprised, I need to make sure OOC that people understand what I think is going on.
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 17, 2009 19:04:20 GMT 1
Just play it very, very light on the amazement-factor regardless of who the other person is, I think is what I mean. The fact that Aleithia can perform at the level she does is okay as it is, IMO, it doesn't need to be justified by particular genius and to some extent can't be because druidism is a matter of earning a gift through reverence, and then learning about using it well and wisely (which is why I figure Tauren might consider themselve 'fully' learned at 50, but Kaldorei druids are still rookies at 1k -- the old thing about higher expectations). That notorious bint we all want to avoid is typically young, perky, precociously talented and causes amazement with her creative and uniquely intelligent solutions. The fewer of those traits you hit (or seem to hit, perception is often a stronger factor than intent) at any one time, the better. And yeah, you're right. Since players have very little common frame of reference when it comes to magic, it's best to be a bit heavy-handed on the "/tell <player> this is a neat but pretty basic trick, you can suggest tweaks if you want". It's always fun when the other guy starts playing with your idea, and you get a bit of co-creation going.
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Post by Fae on Jun 17, 2009 19:35:04 GMT 1
Okay, this is how I've been RPing Fae's powers and trying to tie them into what I can do, in game, with how her character is.
She can shape-shift, but she's not a good fighter in her feral forms. I see them as a physical motor function thing, much like Aleithia does. Once you learn how, it's like riding a bike or learning to swim- but that doesn't make you a Tour De France winner or an Olympic athlete. Feral druids would need a great deal of training to get good in combat, just like a soldier or an assassin. Fae's neither of these things, so if she shape shifts it'll be to try and intimidate her adversary with her big claws and teeth, or to try and benefit from having the heightened senses, rather than to be good in a scrap.
Anyway, I figure that since druids draw some of their magical powers from nature, and some from Elune (moonfire etc), that they'd be at their best outdoors, under the sky, ideally at night, and in natural surroundings like their native forests. That's where Fae works best, and if she's taken out of that environment, her powers won't work for long unless she has some kind of a work-around- like a portable battery, if you like. We have Idols are part of our gear selection, so I thought these could act in this way for them IC. Fae took a pine cone to Shadowforge so she could still use her powers in a place far underground with no trees.
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Post by aleithia on Jun 18, 2009 12:22:58 GMT 1
Just play it very, very light on the amazement-factor regardless of who the other person is, I think is what I mean. The fact that Aleithia can perform at the level she does is okay as it is, IMO, it doesn't need to be justified by particular genius and to some extent can't be because druidism is a matter of earning a gift through reverence, and then learning about using it well and wisely (which is why I figure Tauren might consider themselve 'fully' learned at 50, but Kaldorei druids are still rookies at 1k -- the old thing about higher expectations). Okay, light on amazement, no problem. I'm not so sure that she doesn't need to be a bit of a genius to have got so far so fast, but certainly more on the level of "very fast learner" rather than "brilliant at everything". Well, there's no escaping Aleithia being young, perky and precociously talented - otherwise I really would have to make radical alterations. :-) If she were to cause amazement it would be rather on the level of "gosh she's young to have learned that" or perhaps "I never knew Druids could do that." Certainly not Wesley Crusher. She can shape-shift, but she's not a good fighter in her feral forms. I see them as a physical motor function thing, much like Aleithia does. Once you learn how, it's like riding a bike or learning to swim- but that doesn't make you a Tour De France winner or an Olympic athlete. Feral druids would need a great deal of training to get good in combat, just like a soldier or an assassin. Fae's neither of these things, so if she shape shifts it'll be to try and intimidate her adversary with her big claws and teeth, or to try and benefit from having the heightened senses, rather than to be good in a scrap. Perfect, I'll take it that way. Cat form for surprise attacks, stealth and the senses; Bear form for intimidation and perhaps increased resilience. Neither actually very effective in a serious fight. Neat! This is a very nice idea, I'll use that. The thing is I don't think it's *possible* to be 'talented' at druidic magic -- druidism is a religion, not a craft, magic is what you get by being dedicated and devoted at it and keeping that magic requires responsible use of the gift or Nature may take it back. Piano playing and overclocking analogies don't apply when the basic way the power works is based on a third party's involvement. Rather, it's a matter of having the faith to be granted this divine power, and then learning the wisdom to use it (or in most cases, NOT use it) acceptably. Part of the Balance philosophy is that Nature's gifts are never free -- there is always consequence, always cost, and a druid's true skill IMO is not producing the effect, it's only tampering with nature where the cost and the consequence are justified and for the good. On reflection, I think I only partly agree with this. Yes, there's an element of faith, one has to be granted the gift, and there's an order to be respected. On the other hand, I think of Druidism as a religious discipline more akin to Kung Fu (which was developed for spiritual as well as practical purposes) than to anything in the Abrahamic religions. Unlike Priestesses, Druids don't depend on the constant, active participation of Ysera, Elune or Malorne in their craft; Nature is an impersonal entity with laws to be obeyed, used and applied. In other words, there's less focus on an omnipotent third party, more on the natural laws of the Balance, and the different-but-related laws of the Emerald Dream, and how they can be used to achieve certain results, and at what cost. So faith is important, spiritual discovery is important, but craft is also an important and inseparable part of the discipline. As such I think it is possible to be talented at the craft aspect - but that doesn't make you a great Druid, any more than being talented at Kung Fu makes you a great Buddhist monk. I also think that a combination of devotion, intelligence (i.e. the ability to learn fast) and natural aptitude is the most satisfying explanation for a character developing Druidic powers at a relatively early age. I also think that there might be a bubble effect in Kaledorei society, where the young people spend the days in temples or barracks and whatnot. Getting pretty isolated and in a way "retarded" in the sense that when they get done with basic training after a 100 years or so, they are pretty inexperienced in common day activities since they lived their sheltered life for so long. Meaning a 100 year old Kaledorei might very well behave very immature and childlish since its a phase of his/her life that hasnt happend yet. Yes, but I think there's a real danger of taking this too far. Once we get to "110-year-old Kaldorei still act 19" we end up with "50-year-old Kaldorei still sleep with teddy", which not only contradicts the lore, it's a kind of cop-out allowing "1000-year-old Kaldorei act 40", which of course keeps everything easy - but it's wrong. Roleplaying a character 1000 years old is hard, it should be hard, because even a 100-year-old character should seem old and experienced to us, and the 1000-year-old character has to make them look like a kid. Etcetera. Fifty years old is fifty years old is fifty years old. If a thinking person has lived for fifty years they will have a self-awareness, a worldly wisdom and a groundedness quite unlike what we would expect of a human youngster, even if their culture still regards them as infants, and even if they've lived sheltered lives. Fae (~100 years old) pulls this off very well, I think; she comes across as thinking of herself as young, but nonetheless having been through the school of hard knocks, learned some self-knowledge and some humility, and made a kind of peace with who she is and where she's going. She reminds me a little of some older monks and nuns I've known. Aleithia, by contrast, is cocky, silly, irresponsible, unrealistic, flighty and desperate to impress. At 100 she might still have the same sense of humour, but these qualities would have been pretty much beaten out of her, either by life or by her teachers. Hence my saying, I really can't imagine her being significantly older and still being the same character.
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 18, 2009 14:26:48 GMT 1
On the other hand, I think of Druidism as a religious discipline more akin to Kung Fu ... In other words, there's less focus on an omnipotent third party, more on the natural laws of the Balance, and the different-but-related laws of the Emerald Dream, and how they can be used to achieve certain results, and at what cost. Actually ... martial arts is a pretty good analogy. Running with that, the guys you generally see showing off in the dojo or outside it are the guys who are still working up to their first belt rank or two. The guys who know useful stuff are the ones where you generally won't see it until something happens and then you're on the floor with your arm locked in three places. Only that almost never happens, because the situation will rarely if ever be so far out of their control that they actually -have- to use their skills. If you're trigger-happy, you get kicked out of the dojo and never finish training. Key to martial arts lore holds that no matter what your practical skill, training is not given unless/until the student has the maturity to act responsibly with it - inducing that maturity is actually part of the training. So ... we're back to talent and intelligence not really speeding things along. Rather, it suggests that instead of intelligence, what would get Aleithia ahead of her yearmates would be an overdeveloped sense of reponsibility, which actually lets her elders trust her with stuff younglings aren't usually able to keep from misusing for their own enjoyment, convenience or sense of entitlement. Anyway, this is mostly semantics again - the "not particularly talented, just weird at that age" thing. It's just on an intuitive level, I can't see intelligence past base normal IQ being relevant to being a good druid. Thanks for helping me figure out why. a 100 year old Kaledorei might very well behave very immature and childlish since its a phase of his/her life that hasnt happend yet. I don't think Sara is suggesting they'd be ignorant or lack in world- or self-knowledge. I think she's saying they would lack sense of responsibility and forethought, because there is no pressure on them to have it yet. Even if there is, that's no guarantee of the pressure taking. The rich and famous get away with amazingly childish behaviour regularly, because no-one dictates to them. Point of fact, I spent a portion of last weekend in the company of a 40-year-old man who makes Aleithia, not to mention his own 14-year-old daughter, look practically matronly. I can't agree on years begin a very good measure of maturity. Empirical evidence suggests maturity is an acquired and culturally modulated trait, not an X=Y function of time passing. It's extremely difficult to study due to ethical concerns, but using historical and cultural comparison, there's strong evidence that rate of maturing is very adjustable (within the limits set by the human brain physically maturing in the early 20's). Less than 200 years ago, childhood ended at 10 at the very latest, and an 18-year-old was expected to be married with kids. Right now, we're horrified by teen pregnancy and shocked when our friends marry before 24 or so. The western singles and DINK culture is demonstrating that the "play and have fun" part of life is extending well into people's 20's and even early 30s, now. In a hypothetical immortal culture, I have absolutely no trouble imagining the self-centric and unplanned "live for your own pleasure right now" child phase of life could last 100 or 300 years easily, until responsibility or ennui sets in and makes children become calmer, maturer creatures. This is actually why I think Kaldorei have a 200-year window in which they reach maturity, lorewise we're told "young adults" are anything between 110 and 300. Fae has seen several times more world than most Kaldorei six times her age, she's had to fend for herself, she's a mother -- she's had no choice but to get responsible. She may be a very -young- adult -- just over 100 I think -- but in Kestrel's opinion she is absolutely an adult, since she carries herself like one. As far as I can tell, Aleithia hasn't had the same kind of pressure to grow up. Rather, she's been sheltered -- sent to people who take care of her, which to Kaldorei children is normal since they're raised by the whole town anyway. There might be stuff that's not in the profile, but I don't think I've heard of anything in Aleithia's past that would have forced her to grow up like Fae did. As an orphan sent to the Sisters and then to the Circle, she could be 100 and just as cocky, and it wouldn't raise an eyebrow. Anyway, I'm off and out of internet reach for the weekend, burning stuff and falling in lakes drunk. It's a national obligation, can't be helped. Have fun and don't do anything I wouldn't do.
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Post by Fae on Jun 19, 2009 8:45:09 GMT 1
With regards to Fae, Kestrel has pretty much nailed it. This is also the reason that Fae isn't a very good druid- she ran away from her studies to make her own way in the world because she was headstrong and reckless. She was young, and made what she sees in hindsight as a poor decision, which she regrets (and feels very guilty about regretting it since it also means regretting meeting her mate and having her child) and is now struggling to catch up because of the responsibility to her son and because she's regarded as feckless and a bit of a laughing stock. Before Brannon was born, Fae was very childish and immature, and wasn't very good at looking after herself, which is partly why she fell in love with Berdrin in the first place.
She has had to grow up very quickly to care for Brannon mostly on her own because Berdrin has been on active military duty, sick, or insane for most of the child's life, and because the xenophobic night elf culture would be reluctant to help raise what a lot of them (Silnaen, for example) regard as an abomination.
Fae is secretly very envious of Aleithia because she's so young, precocious and carefree. She sees in her a lot of her own potential which hasn't been realised because life took her down a different path.
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Post by aleithia on Jun 22, 2009 0:19:52 GMT 1
On reflection it occurs to me that we don't actually need to decide why Aleithia has been allowed to learn so much so early. Aleithia herself presumes it's partly her talents and devotion, and partly her own ingenuity in eavesdropping on Loganaar's sessions with others - but she may very well be mistaken. In her background story Loganaar himself was baffled at Aleithia being granted permission to start training already. So if we're all okay with Aleithia continuing to be young-and-foolish, clever (not Einstein) and talented (for her age - not Best Druid Evah) we can leave the explanations for our characters to speculate about.
It helps that Fae has an IC explanation for powers *less* than what would be normal for a novice druid her age; Fae and Aleithia can be at comparable levels in terms of their abilities without having to stretch Aleithia's precociousness too far. There's still plenty of space left for Tadrieniel and Silnaen (adult-but-not-ancient, as far as I can tell) to be way more powerful than the youngsters without being in the league of ancients like Entriia or Jarob.
I see what you mean about age and maturity, Kes, but I still can't imagine A behaving the way she does at 100. A sheltered upbringing just wouldn't be enough to explain it; for her to have all those flaws after so much time she'd just have to be a bozo, which is really not how I see her. ;-) But anyway, it seems like we've found something we can all live with - right?
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 22, 2009 11:45:04 GMT 1
To me that sounds more like after two pages you've decided to not change anything after all.
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Post by aleithia on Jun 22, 2009 12:54:14 GMT 1
To me that sounds more like after two pages you've decided to not change anything after all. Er, pretty much, if that's okay. I've taken your suggestions on board about the limitations of her powers and the OOC-information side of RPing magic. I get the impression we agreed on what A should and shouldn't be able to do IC - I've given up on the tanking idea - and that you're more or less okay with her being very young and (thinking she's) fairly clever/talented as long as I'm very careful to avoid the Wesley Crusher effect. Am I mistaken? Edited to add: I've also slightly edited Aleithia's backstory to make her exact age undetermined. If all else fails, I can imagine she's 19, you can imagine she's 80, and we can leave it open.
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Post by celegil on Jul 12, 2009 12:50:42 GMT 1
I agree with what you say Aleithia. I actually had the same age problem with Celegil and I did decide to maker her older after my three month break. From 99 to 209. Although my character is level 80, I haven't treated her as such, yet. I think that if we all treat our characters like buffed up girls of war, Arthas would definetly be afraid of a bunch of cat girls jumping on him, scratching him. Therefore, I use a bit of a realistic approach. The times I used magic with Celegil are really countable on one hand. Sure, she's a hunter so she shouldn't have a whole lot of Magic skills available but the Hunter class DO have some magic abilities. I mostly just ignore those abilities and let her act like a real life Hunter. She can be quiet, quickly, stealthy and deadly, but she doesn't have an arsenal of magic abilities at her disposal that the Hunter class does have.
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Post by Kestrel on Jul 12, 2009 19:24:43 GMT 1
Just to keep things up to date - Sarama and I talked things over, and a while back added a 100+ minimum age, 300+ recommendation and an "our teen quota is full, we will not take more" -note for characters applying for the Cenarion Guardians. Basically -- whether or not the characters are competent, the guild will look like morons if we claim to be elite warriors when the lines are populated by kids.
I can get my head around one youngster (not 19 specific, but 'young' generic) in an "I won't make a big deal of it if you don't" -way, especially since it's also our fault for not asking for a precise number before-hand ... but we felt any more wouldn't be IC credible on a guild level. Any who object should protest now, or forever hold their peace.
On power levels - Celegil, I think you vastly underestimate just how high the scale goes with Blizzard lore chars like Arthas. Raid level encounters are intended as "you can throw an army at this guy and he will still kick your arse" -type stuff. One Icecrown quest where you play Arthas has you do literally that - flatten an army - and this was BEFORE he gained all of his current power. A few lvl 80's against the Lich King? He'd laugh and then make sock puppets of their heads. The same goes for other raid bosses. Malygos is a demigod, most likely unkillable -- Yogg-Saron and C'thun are gods outright, and IC so unkillable even the Titans and Dragonflights could only imprison them. Lorewise these guys are so far beyond the pale that lvl 80 is kindergarten trash to them.
Level 80 powerlevel, IMO, is average and normal for competent veterans or for seriously exceptional novices having a very good day. It's still vastly below the power level required to actually phase anyone Blizzard ever wrote about.
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Post by celegil on Jul 12, 2009 21:41:04 GMT 1
Agreed. Good thing I heightend Celegil's age to 209 then. ^^ But 100 is a good age yes.
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Post by aleithia on Jul 12, 2009 21:44:21 GMT 1
Just to keep things up to date - Sarama and I talked things over, and a while back added a 100+ minimum age, 300+ recommendation and an "our teen quota is full, we will not take more" -note for characters applying for the Cenarion Guardians. Basically -- whether or not the characters are competent, the guild will look like morons if we claim to be elite warriors when the lines are populated by kids. Yeah, I totally agree, and I think this is a sensible policy. Dead right, A's tender age already pushes the envelope in terms of who the Guardians are meant to be, so one is quite enough. I'll have her sustain her habit of being deliberately evasive about her exact age, to keep everyone happy. Duly noted. :-)
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